Nope, you’re not the only one who sees it. And of course the tell is – although I’m not sure to what degree Douthat is aware of it himself, he may be high on his own Reasonable Conservative supply – whenever one of these “moderate” NYT conservatives tries to stake out what he regards as a centrist position in a column, it always winds up drifting rightward into woo by the end of the piece. When was the last time one of them changed his mind to hold a more leftward position on anything? I can’t recall it happening.
All you have to do is take the conservative Debate Me mania into a different realm to see how ridiculous it is: “Joe Smith, a plumber from New Jersey, believes the moon is made out of green cheese. But noted astrophysicist James Green disagrees. If ‘Doctor’ Green is so sure he’s right, why won’t he debate Joe about the issue?” Actually, I shouldn’t even use this example because we’re rocketing into Idiocracy at the speed of light, so this will likely be a real controversy in about two months.
"Right now the main alternative theory [to this debate] seems to be to enforce an intellectual quarantine, policed by media fact-checking and authoritative expert statements."
Five centuries of science say I'm wrong. Half a century of space travel says I'm wrong. All the so-called scientists say I'm wrong. Which all goes to show I MUST be right about the Earth actually being a big, flat terrarium dish that's carried around the Sun on the back of a giant tortoise. The fact that nobody from NASA will debate me simply reinforces the fact that they know I'm right, and they won't debate me because I will prove the Earth is flat and thus destroy their careers! This is just one more example of the intellectual quarantine that brave truth-tellers like myself must contend with constantly. None of these so-called experts is open to new thinking about the nature of Earth, or of tortoises, for that matter.
Questions about science are always solved by public debates between scientists and non-scientists, right? Right? And don’t get me started on how Fauci personally kept poor Ross the Tosser from getting a proper diagnosis of Lyme disease, which according to my own research, which I did myself on the internet, is caused by — vaccines! Debate me, scientist scum!
I know I’m preaching to the choir here but how are they managing to sell Vaccine Holocaust without millions of deaths? Or does every one of these people think, yeah, millions, just no one I know or have heard of.
Recently I've been engaged in a very much dumbed-down variation of this, only here the issue is adopting zoning regulations in a town that is both rural agriculture and a bedroom community of a college town. The pro-zoners tend to be affiliated with the colleges; the antis are largely farmers with inherited acreage and the less-educated (also a developer with deep pockets). The FB postings used to be discussions about zoning; lately they've degenerated into heated ad hominem attacks and other rhetorical flourishes that educated people have been trained to regard as unfair, misleading, or irrelevant to logical debate. Zoning has become a stalking horse for the deep-seated resentments and animosity the less-educated locals have for the professoriate. It's a microcosm of what's been going on nationally since 2015 (e.g., since they haven't won at the ballot box, illegal/immoral tactics are justifiable) and it is really unpleasant to live in.
It is literally impossible to talk to these people. There is a primary today which will largely determine how the issue goes, and I can't wait for it to be over. I've never had enemies before — I haven't even met these people IRL! — but I do now.
Nice one. I had to re-read before commenting (that's about as high a compliment as I can give!).
Personally, I think that while the "it's all there on YT" crowd show a certain lack of mental gumption, the "science" gang tend to be rude, grooming pedophiles.
I'd like to see that Douthat/Hitchens debate (Hitchens was a wanker, but damn he could write and speak).
Thanks for tying Douthat's claim of "more moderate doubts" back to his Lyme disease. I didn't understand WTF he was talking about. BTW, which library is getting your papers for the scholars of Edroso studies to pore over?
Got only so far as "incipient senility" and had to commiserate, having immediately before checking in here inadvertently sent a text with fairly pithy instructions about a legal issue to who knows how many people who are NOT the intended recipient. I can't even blame it on thumbs. So my proposal is we hire children (probly the younger the better) to follow us olds around to intercede whenever we get close to any modern gizmo. As soon as we look like we might actually interact with said gizmo they are directed to yell at us "Not THAT button!"
You know, for folks who're (as I firmly believe) totally obsessed with hierarchy as an absolute good, conservatives spend a whole lotta time these days of modern times disparaging authority in the form of the CDC or WHO or individuals like Fauci and Hotez.
But then I remember that those aren't natural authorities like cops and megachurch preachers and rich white conservatives, but false authorities, dirty eggheads with their books and their "facts", pretending that studying a subject for years makes you some kind of "expert" when we all know God meant the world to be simple enough that only robust farm folks who understand soil and sun and rain can truly be the experts.
(Also cue flashbacks to weedy know-it-alls in high school who'd rather read a book than go out drinking and are shit in gym class, overbearing teachers who think anyone actually CARES about geometry, and the dumb professor defeated by the clever student in every Chick pamphlet and Christian film.)
The misconception with this debate idiocy, if it was made in good faith which I strongly doubt, is that one side deals with facts and such and the other with beliefs. By and by, facts have no power over beliefs so, you know, a debate such as Douthat and others propose (so to speak) is per se bullshit.
Anyway: speaking of bullshit, RFK It’s other positions are also bullshit.
Meanwhile, a related thought experiment: Who likely to commit to being the POTUS candidate for a third party run is likely to take more votes from Biden than from the GOP candidate. It’s early morning, pre-caffeine here, but no one comes to mind -- not to hurt the fee-fees of mainstream media’s finest political intellectuals.
TIL yesterday: Jimi Hendrix is buried in a Buddhist cemetery -- and a lovely, tranquil place it is.
Extremely well put, Roy! Now for my two cents: words have meaning and the words “Republican” and “conservative” no longer mean what they did even 50 years ago. “Republicans” are more rightly now “fascists” and “conservatives” are “pseudoconservatives.” The modern party of Trump et al has embraced fascism root and branch and there is nothing conservative about its radical dismantling of virtue and truth. I don’t expect anyone to switch usage, so I mentally make the changes as I read. The clarity that ensues is remarkable.
Right!
Right x 2.
Nope, you’re not the only one who sees it. And of course the tell is – although I’m not sure to what degree Douthat is aware of it himself, he may be high on his own Reasonable Conservative supply – whenever one of these “moderate” NYT conservatives tries to stake out what he regards as a centrist position in a column, it always winds up drifting rightward into woo by the end of the piece. When was the last time one of them changed his mind to hold a more leftward position on anything? I can’t recall it happening.
All you have to do is take the conservative Debate Me mania into a different realm to see how ridiculous it is: “Joe Smith, a plumber from New Jersey, believes the moon is made out of green cheese. But noted astrophysicist James Green disagrees. If ‘Doctor’ Green is so sure he’s right, why won’t he debate Joe about the issue?” Actually, I shouldn’t even use this example because we’re rocketing into Idiocracy at the speed of light, so this will likely be a real controversy in about two months.
"Right now the main alternative theory [to this debate] seems to be to enforce an intellectual quarantine, policed by media fact-checking and authoritative expert statements."
Five centuries of science say I'm wrong. Half a century of space travel says I'm wrong. All the so-called scientists say I'm wrong. Which all goes to show I MUST be right about the Earth actually being a big, flat terrarium dish that's carried around the Sun on the back of a giant tortoise. The fact that nobody from NASA will debate me simply reinforces the fact that they know I'm right, and they won't debate me because I will prove the Earth is flat and thus destroy their careers! This is just one more example of the intellectual quarantine that brave truth-tellers like myself must contend with constantly. None of these so-called experts is open to new thinking about the nature of Earth, or of tortoises, for that matter.
Questions about science are always solved by public debates between scientists and non-scientists, right? Right? And don’t get me started on how Fauci personally kept poor Ross the Tosser from getting a proper diagnosis of Lyme disease, which according to my own research, which I did myself on the internet, is caused by — vaccines! Debate me, scientist scum!
I know I’m preaching to the choir here but how are they managing to sell Vaccine Holocaust without millions of deaths? Or does every one of these people think, yeah, millions, just no one I know or have heard of.
Recently I've been engaged in a very much dumbed-down variation of this, only here the issue is adopting zoning regulations in a town that is both rural agriculture and a bedroom community of a college town. The pro-zoners tend to be affiliated with the colleges; the antis are largely farmers with inherited acreage and the less-educated (also a developer with deep pockets). The FB postings used to be discussions about zoning; lately they've degenerated into heated ad hominem attacks and other rhetorical flourishes that educated people have been trained to regard as unfair, misleading, or irrelevant to logical debate. Zoning has become a stalking horse for the deep-seated resentments and animosity the less-educated locals have for the professoriate. It's a microcosm of what's been going on nationally since 2015 (e.g., since they haven't won at the ballot box, illegal/immoral tactics are justifiable) and it is really unpleasant to live in.
It is literally impossible to talk to these people. There is a primary today which will largely determine how the issue goes, and I can't wait for it to be over. I've never had enemies before — I haven't even met these people IRL! — but I do now.
Nice one. I had to re-read before commenting (that's about as high a compliment as I can give!).
Personally, I think that while the "it's all there on YT" crowd show a certain lack of mental gumption, the "science" gang tend to be rude, grooming pedophiles.
I'd like to see that Douthat/Hitchens debate (Hitchens was a wanker, but damn he could write and speak).
I'm sure one of the keys to becoming a respectable virologist involves not pissing away your time talking to assholes on the internet.
I too would like to be counted among those who don't give a fuck what Ross
(Please, for the love of God. Don't) Douthat says.
As Mark Twain said: "Don't wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it." (Apologies to actual pigs.)
Thanks for tying Douthat's claim of "more moderate doubts" back to his Lyme disease. I didn't understand WTF he was talking about. BTW, which library is getting your papers for the scholars of Edroso studies to pore over?
Got only so far as "incipient senility" and had to commiserate, having immediately before checking in here inadvertently sent a text with fairly pithy instructions about a legal issue to who knows how many people who are NOT the intended recipient. I can't even blame it on thumbs. So my proposal is we hire children (probly the younger the better) to follow us olds around to intercede whenever we get close to any modern gizmo. As soon as we look like we might actually interact with said gizmo they are directed to yell at us "Not THAT button!"
You know, for folks who're (as I firmly believe) totally obsessed with hierarchy as an absolute good, conservatives spend a whole lotta time these days of modern times disparaging authority in the form of the CDC or WHO or individuals like Fauci and Hotez.
But then I remember that those aren't natural authorities like cops and megachurch preachers and rich white conservatives, but false authorities, dirty eggheads with their books and their "facts", pretending that studying a subject for years makes you some kind of "expert" when we all know God meant the world to be simple enough that only robust farm folks who understand soil and sun and rain can truly be the experts.
(Also cue flashbacks to weedy know-it-alls in high school who'd rather read a book than go out drinking and are shit in gym class, overbearing teachers who think anyone actually CARES about geometry, and the dumb professor defeated by the clever student in every Chick pamphlet and Christian film.)
couldsta woulsdta shouldsta
The misconception with this debate idiocy, if it was made in good faith which I strongly doubt, is that one side deals with facts and such and the other with beliefs. By and by, facts have no power over beliefs so, you know, a debate such as Douthat and others propose (so to speak) is per se bullshit.
Anyway: speaking of bullshit, RFK It’s other positions are also bullshit.
Meanwhile, a related thought experiment: Who likely to commit to being the POTUS candidate for a third party run is likely to take more votes from Biden than from the GOP candidate. It’s early morning, pre-caffeine here, but no one comes to mind -- not to hurt the fee-fees of mainstream media’s finest political intellectuals.
TIL yesterday: Jimi Hendrix is buried in a Buddhist cemetery -- and a lovely, tranquil place it is.
Extremely well put, Roy! Now for my two cents: words have meaning and the words “Republican” and “conservative” no longer mean what they did even 50 years ago. “Republicans” are more rightly now “fascists” and “conservatives” are “pseudoconservatives.” The modern party of Trump et al has embraced fascism root and branch and there is nothing conservative about its radical dismantling of virtue and truth. I don’t expect anyone to switch usage, so I mentally make the changes as I read. The clarity that ensues is remarkable.