There’s no lucid, sensible, plain English way that those who want to make the nation better aren’t the truly patriotic.
Flip side: the self-proclaimed patriots aren’t conservative; they’re beyond that to all out reactionary.
Meanwhile, they’re believers and in a believer vs the fact-based, the latter will always lose.
Which brings to all the, uh, pro-pro choice votes: let’s see how many of those votes translate into Democratic votes. Judging from those pro-pro choice victories, 2024 should be a blue tsunami. Who knows? Maybe it’ll happen! But I certainly won’t bet on it.
Defining patriotism as blind, unswerving, canine-like loyalty to your country regardless of how your country treats you or how it treats others is a little like asking a wife to remain 100% devoted to her husband regardless of the fact he beats her and mistreats others because, hey, in for a penny, in for a pound.
Also, the term “patriot” has been so abused by conservatives it is simply defined by them as “approval of anything OUR team does.” If you don’t agree, you’re unpatriotic. Sort of like the definitions of a “freedom fighter” and a “terrorist.” They both engage in similar activities, but the labeling is contingent on which side they are on. So if you carry a Confederate flag into the Capitol Building and take a shit on the floor, you’re a patriot. If you march in opposition to a war against civilians, you’re unpatriotic and maybe terrorist-adjacent yourself. I guess what I’m saying is I see those terms as having become so subjective they’ve been rendered meaningless.
Is it the United States as a geographic area defined on a map? Vast and containing beauty so profound it can make your heart ache to see it?
Is it the United States as an expression of your own desires and deficiencies? Strong, powerful, able to work its will without constraint?
Is it the United States as avatar of avarice? Wealthy beyond the dreams of people even a century ago, and yet miserly to the point of delighting in starving the poor to death?
Or is it the United States as an ideal? As the concept of freedom, equality, human rights, and all the lofty ideals we claim to believe in?
Patriotism is the last resort of the scoundrel, and it is unfortunate that the scoundrels get to define the term way too often.
I think we're almost past the Genocides 'r us phase of The American Experiment. There's still some indigenous peoples left around but It's been a hundred years since we stole the last of the good land . Thanks to common sense public health standards we no longer have a large poor population jacked to the point of permanent bloodlust through close , casual proximity to heavy metals and dioxins.
“Dissent is patriotic.” On the first leg of a cross-country motoring jaunt in 2010 my party overnighted in Whitehall, a flyspeck of a burg in southwestern Montana. To judge from its largely boarded-up downtown, the local economy had fallen off. Two or three hand-painted signs exhorted the locals (and where were they, anyway?—the streets were all-but deserted, although the vast clouds of voracious mosquitos at dusk may have accounted for this) to abjure “meth.” A church bore this message outside: “MEANINGFUL RESISTANCE TO GODLESS GOV IS A DUTY! RISE UP O CHURCH OF GOD.”
As we have learned, of course, dissent is only patriotic when that lot ain’t in charge. Otherwise, it’s treason.
Nov 13, 2023·edited Nov 13, 2023Liked by Roy Edroso
I think it was the terrible magnitude of loss in WWI that transformed the concept of patriotism for the British, and a comparable — but much, much smaller and therefore less pervasive — loss in Vietnam that changed "patriotism" for some Americans.
Since WWI, "for King and country" is understood largely as a cruel joke at the expense of the British people. I was in London four years ago during the week leading up to Remembrance Day (their Veterans Day), and there is nothing like it in the U.S. Everywhere there are red poppies being sold to benefit veterans, and everyone wears them. The grounds around Westminster Abbey are covered with personalized memorials to soldiers who died, noting their regiments and sometimes their names, a physical acre of remembrance. The experience reinforced to me how the geographical isolation of the U.S. has impoverished our awareness of and understanding of history. (Not so for Canadians, as part of the Empire/Commonwealth.) Remembrance Day is solemn, universal, and about people; not about notions of national ideals or honor.
Have you noticed how, since Maya Lin's Vietnam memorial, American memorials have changed to a similar personalization? When Lin's design was introduced it was very controversial, with some veterans calling it a "black gash of shame." But that memorial has evoked a large and deeply felt response, even among the veterans who originally opposed it, and is honored and respected in a way the statue of an anonymous Civil War soldier on a plinth is not. After 9/11, many suburban communities in the NY metro area created their own small memorials with the names of residents killed in the Twin Towers.
The fact that there was any organized rite at an American WWI memorial, and that people showed up, to me illustrates that some Americans share this revision of "patriotism," and I think the fact that the Medal of Honor memorial names two individuals who lived nearby contributes to that understanding. (The bitter side of Tip O'Neill's "all politics is local?")
P.S. To illustrate, attached is a photograph of the WWI memorial in the suburban town where I grew up. The style is very much of its day — lofty, remote, impersonal. When I was four I called it "the lady with no pants on," and that's the epithet that stuck in my family.
Nov 13, 2023·edited Nov 13, 2023Liked by Roy Edroso
Full of wisdom and beautifully put. I appreciate the link to "To be a conservative means to be an asshole and, to the extent that policy figures into it, to endorse whatever policy makes you more of an asshole." I was hoping it would catch on as Roy's Law but no luck on that score yet. In a time when "patriot" means you love guns and want to see Anthony Fauci executed, I can see why young people might be wary of joining a club full of nothing but assholes. "Patriotism" is not supposed to mean "hate of country," and I think liberals have been mistaken not to define it correctly and embrace the idea, especially since liberal accomplishments have universally been to the benefit of all Americans, even to the "patriots" who want them dead.
I can’t begin to count the number of times I’ve been embarrassed to be a citizen of the United States. I love our country’s beautiful, diverse topography and many of my fellow citizens, but it’s hard to embrace our history and the current state of our politics and say I’m a patriot. Maybe if we ever move beyond being a military empire and coddling the fascists in our midst, I’ll feel differently, but I’ve been waiting my whole life for things to turn around and we seem to be no closer to that than the day I was born. So I engage in politics because giving up is not a choice but my true connection with America is her forests, mountains, lakes and deserts. I’d rather attend an Arbor Day celebration than another commemoration of the worst behavior humans can commit to in the name of patriotism.
About this patriotism thing, unless you're marshalling the country for war, what is it good for? (Absolutely nothing, Huh!). What I mean is that I can't think of a single policy idea that I favor that can't be justified by simple human concern for my fellow humans, no need to bring America into it. I'm for single-payer not because it would be "Good for America", but because it would be good for millions of people who live here. Am I supposed to support the various renewable-energy policies in the Inflation Reduction Act because it "makes American more competitive with China in renewable energy"? Yeah, I can see that as pitch any politician would make to sell the thing, but concern about the impending destruction of the biosphere is quite enough for me, thank you.
was thinking along these lines myself this weekend - my conception of "America" is that its stated values aren't a description but an as-yet-unfilled promise, and the greatest Americans - like Frederick Douglass, Langston Hughes, MLK - are those who takes those promises seriously enough to hold the country accountable to them.
A considerable number of Democratic politicians seem to think this is how you fight against fascism and for democracy: By pointing out, once again, that democracy is an American tradition (as American as Chevrolet!)
But it doesn't do anything for me, fascism is fascism, and therefore bad, no need to bring the Founding Fathers into it, especially considering the problematic definitions they held for democracy.
But whatever, these are desperate times, I'm for whatever pitch gets us more allies, it's just that I suspect this one only pulls in about a dozen people and every single one of 'em is on the payroll of The Lincoln Project.
I always learn when you tackle one of the Capitalized words. I always looked at Patriotism as one of those naive ideals, the fulcrum of a Frank Capra move starring an all-American boy from a small town whose religious faith in the incantory power of the Founding documents summons the power of We The People to defeat the crooked pols. Growing up 1A during the Vietnam War I saw Patriotism in action, and later understanding what else was in those Founding documents sealed the deal for me. Like everything else in America, Patriotism was a scam to keep the hoi-polloi in line. But watching the collapse of the Great Experiment (a common reference to the idea of America a few hundred hears ago, one I always liked for its emphasis of the fragility of the enterprise) I see that naive idealism as a powerful weapon, if we have the wit and courage to grasp it. Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel, but also the best hope for holding together a Great Experiment. Not a love of King and Country, but an Idea, one capable of being made more perfect if we want it.
I think you're right, Ray.
Nailed.
Love It or Leave It lends itself to many potential discussions* with American fascists.
*Loosely defined.
There’s no lucid, sensible, plain English way that those who want to make the nation better aren’t the truly patriotic.
Flip side: the self-proclaimed patriots aren’t conservative; they’re beyond that to all out reactionary.
Meanwhile, they’re believers and in a believer vs the fact-based, the latter will always lose.
Which brings to all the, uh, pro-pro choice votes: let’s see how many of those votes translate into Democratic votes. Judging from those pro-pro choice victories, 2024 should be a blue tsunami. Who knows? Maybe it’ll happen! But I certainly won’t bet on it.
Defining patriotism as blind, unswerving, canine-like loyalty to your country regardless of how your country treats you or how it treats others is a little like asking a wife to remain 100% devoted to her husband regardless of the fact he beats her and mistreats others because, hey, in for a penny, in for a pound.
Also, the term “patriot” has been so abused by conservatives it is simply defined by them as “approval of anything OUR team does.” If you don’t agree, you’re unpatriotic. Sort of like the definitions of a “freedom fighter” and a “terrorist.” They both engage in similar activities, but the labeling is contingent on which side they are on. So if you carry a Confederate flag into the Capitol Building and take a shit on the floor, you’re a patriot. If you march in opposition to a war against civilians, you’re unpatriotic and maybe terrorist-adjacent yourself. I guess what I’m saying is I see those terms as having become so subjective they’ve been rendered meaningless.
So yours was a refreshing take, Roy. Thanks.
What do you love?
Is it the United States as a geographic area defined on a map? Vast and containing beauty so profound it can make your heart ache to see it?
Is it the United States as an expression of your own desires and deficiencies? Strong, powerful, able to work its will without constraint?
Is it the United States as avatar of avarice? Wealthy beyond the dreams of people even a century ago, and yet miserly to the point of delighting in starving the poor to death?
Or is it the United States as an ideal? As the concept of freedom, equality, human rights, and all the lofty ideals we claim to believe in?
Patriotism is the last resort of the scoundrel, and it is unfortunate that the scoundrels get to define the term way too often.
I think we're almost past the Genocides 'r us phase of The American Experiment. There's still some indigenous peoples left around but It's been a hundred years since we stole the last of the good land . Thanks to common sense public health standards we no longer have a large poor population jacked to the point of permanent bloodlust through close , casual proximity to heavy metals and dioxins.
“Dissent is patriotic.” On the first leg of a cross-country motoring jaunt in 2010 my party overnighted in Whitehall, a flyspeck of a burg in southwestern Montana. To judge from its largely boarded-up downtown, the local economy had fallen off. Two or three hand-painted signs exhorted the locals (and where were they, anyway?—the streets were all-but deserted, although the vast clouds of voracious mosquitos at dusk may have accounted for this) to abjure “meth.” A church bore this message outside: “MEANINGFUL RESISTANCE TO GODLESS GOV IS A DUTY! RISE UP O CHURCH OF GOD.”
As we have learned, of course, dissent is only patriotic when that lot ain’t in charge. Otherwise, it’s treason.
I think it was the terrible magnitude of loss in WWI that transformed the concept of patriotism for the British, and a comparable — but much, much smaller and therefore less pervasive — loss in Vietnam that changed "patriotism" for some Americans.
Since WWI, "for King and country" is understood largely as a cruel joke at the expense of the British people. I was in London four years ago during the week leading up to Remembrance Day (their Veterans Day), and there is nothing like it in the U.S. Everywhere there are red poppies being sold to benefit veterans, and everyone wears them. The grounds around Westminster Abbey are covered with personalized memorials to soldiers who died, noting their regiments and sometimes their names, a physical acre of remembrance. The experience reinforced to me how the geographical isolation of the U.S. has impoverished our awareness of and understanding of history. (Not so for Canadians, as part of the Empire/Commonwealth.) Remembrance Day is solemn, universal, and about people; not about notions of national ideals or honor.
Have you noticed how, since Maya Lin's Vietnam memorial, American memorials have changed to a similar personalization? When Lin's design was introduced it was very controversial, with some veterans calling it a "black gash of shame." But that memorial has evoked a large and deeply felt response, even among the veterans who originally opposed it, and is honored and respected in a way the statue of an anonymous Civil War soldier on a plinth is not. After 9/11, many suburban communities in the NY metro area created their own small memorials with the names of residents killed in the Twin Towers.
The fact that there was any organized rite at an American WWI memorial, and that people showed up, to me illustrates that some Americans share this revision of "patriotism," and I think the fact that the Medal of Honor memorial names two individuals who lived nearby contributes to that understanding. (The bitter side of Tip O'Neill's "all politics is local?")
P.S. To illustrate, attached is a photograph of the WWI memorial in the suburban town where I grew up. The style is very much of its day — lofty, remote, impersonal. When I was four I called it "the lady with no pants on," and that's the epithet that stuck in my family.
https://theclio.com/entry/45061
Full of wisdom and beautifully put. I appreciate the link to "To be a conservative means to be an asshole and, to the extent that policy figures into it, to endorse whatever policy makes you more of an asshole." I was hoping it would catch on as Roy's Law but no luck on that score yet. In a time when "patriot" means you love guns and want to see Anthony Fauci executed, I can see why young people might be wary of joining a club full of nothing but assholes. "Patriotism" is not supposed to mean "hate of country," and I think liberals have been mistaken not to define it correctly and embrace the idea, especially since liberal accomplishments have universally been to the benefit of all Americans, even to the "patriots" who want them dead.
I can’t begin to count the number of times I’ve been embarrassed to be a citizen of the United States. I love our country’s beautiful, diverse topography and many of my fellow citizens, but it’s hard to embrace our history and the current state of our politics and say I’m a patriot. Maybe if we ever move beyond being a military empire and coddling the fascists in our midst, I’ll feel differently, but I’ve been waiting my whole life for things to turn around and we seem to be no closer to that than the day I was born. So I engage in politics because giving up is not a choice but my true connection with America is her forests, mountains, lakes and deserts. I’d rather attend an Arbor Day celebration than another commemoration of the worst behavior humans can commit to in the name of patriotism.
This is magnificently written, and I wish I could share its sentiments. But no patriotism for me. Here's the article that, for me anyway, nails it:
https://www.counterpunch.org/2001/11/12/goodbye-to-patriotism/
About this patriotism thing, unless you're marshalling the country for war, what is it good for? (Absolutely nothing, Huh!). What I mean is that I can't think of a single policy idea that I favor that can't be justified by simple human concern for my fellow humans, no need to bring America into it. I'm for single-payer not because it would be "Good for America", but because it would be good for millions of people who live here. Am I supposed to support the various renewable-energy policies in the Inflation Reduction Act because it "makes American more competitive with China in renewable energy"? Yeah, I can see that as pitch any politician would make to sell the thing, but concern about the impending destruction of the biosphere is quite enough for me, thank you.
was thinking along these lines myself this weekend - my conception of "America" is that its stated values aren't a description but an as-yet-unfilled promise, and the greatest Americans - like Frederick Douglass, Langston Hughes, MLK - are those who takes those promises seriously enough to hold the country accountable to them.
Bitterly & with muich resignation, I add:
If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
(Wilfred Owen, pub. 1921)
A considerable number of Democratic politicians seem to think this is how you fight against fascism and for democracy: By pointing out, once again, that democracy is an American tradition (as American as Chevrolet!)
But it doesn't do anything for me, fascism is fascism, and therefore bad, no need to bring the Founding Fathers into it, especially considering the problematic definitions they held for democracy.
But whatever, these are desperate times, I'm for whatever pitch gets us more allies, it's just that I suspect this one only pulls in about a dozen people and every single one of 'em is on the payroll of The Lincoln Project.
I always learn when you tackle one of the Capitalized words. I always looked at Patriotism as one of those naive ideals, the fulcrum of a Frank Capra move starring an all-American boy from a small town whose religious faith in the incantory power of the Founding documents summons the power of We The People to defeat the crooked pols. Growing up 1A during the Vietnam War I saw Patriotism in action, and later understanding what else was in those Founding documents sealed the deal for me. Like everything else in America, Patriotism was a scam to keep the hoi-polloi in line. But watching the collapse of the Great Experiment (a common reference to the idea of America a few hundred hears ago, one I always liked for its emphasis of the fragility of the enterprise) I see that naive idealism as a powerful weapon, if we have the wit and courage to grasp it. Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel, but also the best hope for holding together a Great Experiment. Not a love of King and Country, but an Idea, one capable of being made more perfect if we want it.