I also hate sci-fi/fantasy as a general rule, but enjoyed Dune for the same reasons – it’s incredibly well done for what it is, and is enjoyable solely on the basis of being so masterfully rendered.
Although I did laugh out loud when Jason Momoa and Timothee Chalamet squared off for a mock fight. I know Chalamet is a heart-throb, but he makes Kodi Smit-McPhee look butch in comparison.
Dune without Sean Young is like La Dolce Vita without Anita Eckberg or Casablanca without Ingrid Bergman, Some Like It Hot without Marilyn Monroe or Bladerunner without, yes, Sean Young. Why watch it? (And don’t get me started on Kenneth “Bannon” McMillan’s replacement.)
May I clarify if this is a Best Picture nominee? SMDH
The sci-fi brethern will want to come to blows over this, but Dune always struck me as dull & pretentious. Therefore Lynch's adaptation was perfect -- why take it any more seriously? _Why keep fucking re-making it???_
It's White Savior nonsense, pushing the idea of the Good Colonialist & the fantasy that an outsider can come into a native spiritual system & Just Be Better at It. Plus its ham-handed appropriation of Islamic mystical terms.
For fuck's sake, it's 2022 -- white America hasn't gotten over this delusion yet?
Despite this write-up, I am reluctant to see this movie. The books were delightful when I was in college, but Herbert's writing doesn't hold up as the years go by. And by their very nature, the books do not lend themselves to being made into movies. The previous attempts were obvious flops (though Jose Ferrer did astonishing work in his role). Maybe I catch this on cable?
Dune - I mean the movie was ok, but the book is probably the only Sci-fi epic I really liked. The Bene gessuits are def not concubines and I don’t like how they were depicted. - The OG Secret Mystical Sisterhood are the supernatural bad asses and basically rule the entire Dune universe with their power. Die hard Dune fans have conflicting perspectives on the remake. I admit, it was closer to the storyline of the book.
My reaction to Dune was similar to that of West Side Story: I enjoyed both well enough, both were gorgeously shot, had great scores/soundtracks, solid performances, beautiful sets and costumes, etc. all the big screen bells & whistles. But…at the end of the day…they were remakes of remakes of stuff I’d read ages ago, and I walked out feeling, “meh.” Nothing really wrong with them, but I’m getting a bit long in the tooth to dedicate two or three hours to reruns.
There's a wonderful but nearly unreadable novel by Norman Spinrad called /The Iron Dream/, the premise of which is: this is the novel Hitler wrote, in the alternate universe where Hitler left Germany and came to the U.S. to be a science-fiction writer. I'm convinced the basic idea -- that Hitler missed his calling, that he really should have been a sci-fi author putting his Gary Stu through his paces as a galaxy-conquering Ubermensch -- came to Spinrad after one too many drinks, and one too many /Dune/ sequels.
Iron Dream is awesome! Spinrad is a badass. Still kicking at 81. "Bug Jack Barron " is a classic and " The Men in the Trees" a Vietnam allegory is amazing.
Harlan Ellison wrote a screenplay for Bug Jack Barron that was set to be directed by Costa -Garvas. Never happened but damn.
Another thumbs-up for The Iron Dream. I read it as a satire of how the Third Reich was a wish-fulfillment fantasy of a frustrated artist. It presents WWII as it played out in his head, and it's hilarious and horrifying.
And that experience is… pretty typical. I read the first one in high school. (In Columbus, Georgia. In the early 1970s. Under those circumstances almost anywhere seemed an improvement.)
Exactly, sci-fi/fantasy got me through life in small-town northern Illinois, we parted ways shortly after I got the hell out, and I've never asked anything more from it since.
I watched this last night - I loved how it looked! You are exactly right about it though.
I enjoyed the casting and the performances. ( special shout out to the No Country for Old Men reunion. Though they surely could have found something for Tommy Lee Jones to do) Much more than I expected.
It was still Dune though. Interesting ideas tied to a clunky plot .(Meanwhile back on Arrakis...) Man did it ever look great though.
They are shooting a lot of the sequel in IMAX. I get a huge headache just thinking about IMAX but I might risk that to see some of this imagery on that big a canvas .
I read Dune in like 1974 . I remember it was a big trade paperback and on the back cover it said" a towering Masterpiece of Science Fiction"
And" perhaps the greatest science fiction novel ever written!"* I remember it being a big idea book for people who didn't really like science fiction
("Arrakis is like, Vietnam man and Spice is like, LSD")
What ever. I read "Gravity's Rainbow about the same time. Dune was insignificant compared to that.
* "Stars My Destination" takes that prize . Third the length of Dune and 10 or 12 times better.
I like the colonial war context that makes the series timely, the Herbert doesn't ever really question the "White Man's Burden"* aspect that makes the conflict "necessary."
But the psychedelic aspect of Spice distracts quite a bit from the long-enduring presence of spices & then crude oil as an economic driver of Middle Eastern jealousy/fascination/domination/interference.
* If you loathe the Rudyard Kipling poem, check this shit out: "Black Man's Burden" by Hubert Henry Harrison
Gotta admit, having a problem with the whole "sci-fi and fantasy are inherently childish" thing. Agree that, like any other genre, they need interesting, fully developed characters.
We all have our blind spots. For example, I've never been able to get into musicals. On the rare occasion I watch one, I try to appreciate it the best I can, just as you've done with Dune. For that, I thank you.
This, in conjunction with someone else's comment made me realize I've never heard, or at least remember, you mentioning Tarkovsky? Have you seen Solaris? Or Stalker?
Science fiction at its best is a sly indictment of authoritarianism. Dune, on the other hand, is an overt approbation of it. Science fiction at its second best is exciting space opera. Dune the novel is one of the better space operas ever written. Dune the Viilleneuve movie totally fails in that regard as well. David Lynch had the right idea at least. I wish there were a director's cut of his vision for the story.
Which version are you referencing? I'd say the Tarkovsky version didn't do well here because of its non-commercial nature. The Soderbergh movie, on the other hand, didn't do well because it's not a very good film, imo. Though I've been meaning to watch it again in case my initial bias against remaking a film like that has faded sufficiently.
Hold it, hold it, wait for it: I see... a mashup of /Dune/ and /Lawrence of Arabia/! Peter O'Toole rides a giant sandworm through the desert to carve out the boundaries of the post-war Arab world, and the natives ululate in full Dolby-powered approval! Then there's the crisis, as one of O'Toole's Arab friends pursues an enemy across the sacred wormline, and O'Toole has to have him sentenced to be eaten by the worm. Then all the natives start waving their scimitars, and everything falls apart, it's like the end of Camelot!
Hold it, hold it: a mashup of /Dune/ and /Lawrence/ AND /Camelot/! We can have grand scenery AND political commentary AND singing and dancing! It can't miss! It'll be bigger than /Scott of the Sahara/!
'It made me wish I’d seen it in a theater and still took drugs.' Yeah, those were the days.
I know it's passé in an Oscar context but 'No time to die' was the 5th film in a quietly marvelous series of Bond films and Dan Craig did a fabo job of rebooting the series.
A shame there's no recognition (apart from nearly 4 billion dollars in ticket sales) for Craig's probably 8-10 years work and fairly fine performances, especially in Quantum of Solace and the last film.
Exactly! Is there some rule that says "Thou shalt NOT enjoy both SF/Fantasy films AND Scorcese, et al"? This is a false dichotomy. I like movies and pretty much everything that inspired directors to make movies.
The new Dune is fun and looks amazing but can never replace the inexplicable bizarreness of Lynch's. Imagine if he'd gotten ~5 hours across two movies to do his thing. But my point is I really wanted the new one to be weirder. (It's possible I'm too accustomed to the outlines of the basic plot to appreciate what weirdness is there.)
Small thing, but wondering if the robot bug assassin is an assassin bug: (Warning--bugs) https://citybugs.tamu.edu/factsheets/landscape/others/ent-1003/
This was more like the Bug Bomb in the old Canadian series Lexx. But not as amusing.
I also hate sci-fi/fantasy as a general rule, but enjoyed Dune for the same reasons – it’s incredibly well done for what it is, and is enjoyable solely on the basis of being so masterfully rendered.
Although I did laugh out loud when Jason Momoa and Timothee Chalamet squared off for a mock fight. I know Chalamet is a heart-throb, but he makes Kodi Smit-McPhee look butch in comparison.
You know, I bought it! The old Hollywood magic, and look-good martial arts training, still works on me.
It DID look good and if it wasn't, you know, *Jason Momoa* I might have bought it too.
Dune without Sean Young is like La Dolce Vita without Anita Eckberg or Casablanca without Ingrid Bergman, Some Like It Hot without Marilyn Monroe or Bladerunner without, yes, Sean Young. Why watch it? (And don’t get me started on Kenneth “Bannon” McMillan’s replacement.)
Kenneth McMillan was *so* much fun.
Or like Bladerunner also without Darryl Hannah.
What about No Way Out?
May I clarify if this is a Best Picture nominee? SMDH
The sci-fi brethern will want to come to blows over this, but Dune always struck me as dull & pretentious. Therefore Lynch's adaptation was perfect -- why take it any more seriously? _Why keep fucking re-making it???_
It's White Savior nonsense, pushing the idea of the Good Colonialist & the fantasy that an outsider can come into a native spiritual system & Just Be Better at It. Plus its ham-handed appropriation of Islamic mystical terms.
For fuck's sake, it's 2022 -- white America hasn't gotten over this delusion yet?
Well, If we're going to be anti-imperialist about it, there goes 90% of American adventure stories. Which is okay by me!
You & me both, per!
Despite this write-up, I am reluctant to see this movie. The books were delightful when I was in college, but Herbert's writing doesn't hold up as the years go by. And by their very nature, the books do not lend themselves to being made into movies. The previous attempts were obvious flops (though Jose Ferrer did astonishing work in his role). Maybe I catch this on cable?
Gotta admit: parts of the Lynch version had a real waking-nightmare quality. If it’d only been applied more consistently…
I will watch anything with Ferrer (père, et fils)
Dune - I mean the movie was ok, but the book is probably the only Sci-fi epic I really liked. The Bene gessuits are def not concubines and I don’t like how they were depicted. - The OG Secret Mystical Sisterhood are the supernatural bad asses and basically rule the entire Dune universe with their power. Die hard Dune fans have conflicting perspectives on the remake. I admit, it was closer to the storyline of the book.
Bunch of Grumpy Olds in these parts!
I mean, I'm an Old and I'm Grumpy in many ways. But, c'mon.
You might remember this commercial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4ZB_a5cEec
Hell’s bells, someone’s already dropped a Chilton reference
Dune was OK, but I really loved the sequel, "Volkswagen Beetle, 1972-76"
Their Rabbit manual had little illustrative digressions worthy of the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers.
Well Roy's Substack does include children by the millions
My reaction to Dune was similar to that of West Side Story: I enjoyed both well enough, both were gorgeously shot, had great scores/soundtracks, solid performances, beautiful sets and costumes, etc. all the big screen bells & whistles. But…at the end of the day…they were remakes of remakes of stuff I’d read ages ago, and I walked out feeling, “meh.” Nothing really wrong with them, but I’m getting a bit long in the tooth to dedicate two or three hours to reruns.
Fair enough!
"Dune"
"Children of Dune"
"Alimony is a Bitch Dune"
"Do You Know How Much It Costs To Put A Kid Through School Dune"
"I'm Taking Over Dad's Franchise Dune"
“It’s Just Dunes All the Way Down”
There's a wonderful but nearly unreadable novel by Norman Spinrad called /The Iron Dream/, the premise of which is: this is the novel Hitler wrote, in the alternate universe where Hitler left Germany and came to the U.S. to be a science-fiction writer. I'm convinced the basic idea -- that Hitler missed his calling, that he really should have been a sci-fi author putting his Gary Stu through his paces as a galaxy-conquering Ubermensch -- came to Spinrad after one too many drinks, and one too many /Dune/ sequels.
Maybe we're in a simulation that's Hitler trying to overcome the sophomore slump!
Iron Dream is awesome! Spinrad is a badass. Still kicking at 81. "Bug Jack Barron " is a classic and " The Men in the Trees" a Vietnam allegory is amazing.
Harlan Ellison wrote a screenplay for Bug Jack Barron that was set to be directed by Costa -Garvas. Never happened but damn.
Another thumbs-up for The Iron Dream. I read it as a satire of how the Third Reich was a wish-fulfillment fantasy of a frustrated artist. It presents WWII as it played out in his head, and it's hilarious and horrifying.
There are 26 Dune books. I gave up halfway through the second one.
And that experience is… pretty typical. I read the first one in high school. (In Columbus, Georgia. In the early 1970s. Under those circumstances almost anywhere seemed an improvement.)
Exactly, sci-fi/fantasy got me through life in small-town northern Illinois, we parted ways shortly after I got the hell out, and I've never asked anything more from it since.
I watched this last night - I loved how it looked! You are exactly right about it though.
I enjoyed the casting and the performances. ( special shout out to the No Country for Old Men reunion. Though they surely could have found something for Tommy Lee Jones to do) Much more than I expected.
It was still Dune though. Interesting ideas tied to a clunky plot .(Meanwhile back on Arrakis...) Man did it ever look great though.
They are shooting a lot of the sequel in IMAX. I get a huge headache just thinking about IMAX but I might risk that to see some of this imagery on that big a canvas .
I read Dune in like 1974 . I remember it was a big trade paperback and on the back cover it said" a towering Masterpiece of Science Fiction"
And" perhaps the greatest science fiction novel ever written!"* I remember it being a big idea book for people who didn't really like science fiction
("Arrakis is like, Vietnam man and Spice is like, LSD")
What ever. I read "Gravity's Rainbow about the same time. Dune was insignificant compared to that.
* "Stars My Destination" takes that prize . Third the length of Dune and 10 or 12 times better.
Agree about Bester. THAT would be awesome but it’s prob’ly unfilmable.
"Though they surely could have found something for Tommy Lee Jones to do" Now that would have just been funny.
"Spice is like, LSD"
I like the colonial war context that makes the series timely, the Herbert doesn't ever really question the "White Man's Burden"* aspect that makes the conflict "necessary."
But the psychedelic aspect of Spice distracts quite a bit from the long-enduring presence of spices & then crude oil as an economic driver of Middle Eastern jealousy/fascination/domination/interference.
* If you loathe the Rudyard Kipling poem, check this shit out: "Black Man's Burden" by Hubert Henry Harrison
I was thinking last night " Hmm. - Oligarchs "
It kept Chilton's auto repair manuals in business, so there's that.
Gotta admit, having a problem with the whole "sci-fi and fantasy are inherently childish" thing. Agree that, like any other genre, they need interesting, fully developed characters.
Sorry, just can't get with it. It's a disability I freely admit.
We all have our blind spots. For example, I've never been able to get into musicals. On the rare occasion I watch one, I try to appreciate it the best I can, just as you've done with Dune. For that, I thank you.
This, in conjunction with someone else's comment made me realize I've never heard, or at least remember, you mentioning Tarkovsky? Have you seen Solaris? Or Stalker?
Science fiction at its best is a sly indictment of authoritarianism. Dune, on the other hand, is an overt approbation of it. Science fiction at its second best is exciting space opera. Dune the novel is one of the better space operas ever written. Dune the Viilleneuve movie totally fails in that regard as well. David Lynch had the right idea at least. I wish there were a director's cut of his vision for the story.
I think that’s why Lem’s SOLARIS didn’t do better here - the adults were far too mature
so, like no one could relate to them
Which version are you referencing? I'd say the Tarkovsky version didn't do well here because of its non-commercial nature. The Soderbergh movie, on the other hand, didn't do well because it's not a very good film, imo. Though I've been meaning to watch it again in case my initial bias against remaking a film like that has faded sufficiently.
On the other hand, if one's a superficial nerd-with-issues like me...
Hold it, hold it, wait for it: I see... a mashup of /Dune/ and /Lawrence of Arabia/! Peter O'Toole rides a giant sandworm through the desert to carve out the boundaries of the post-war Arab world, and the natives ululate in full Dolby-powered approval! Then there's the crisis, as one of O'Toole's Arab friends pursues an enemy across the sacred wormline, and O'Toole has to have him sentenced to be eaten by the worm. Then all the natives start waving their scimitars, and everything falls apart, it's like the end of Camelot!
Hold it, hold it: a mashup of /Dune/ and /Lawrence/ AND /Camelot/! We can have grand scenery AND political commentary AND singing and dancing! It can't miss! It'll be bigger than /Scott of the Sahara/!
Think they already did this one; it was called "Ishtar". (/s)
No giant worms! That's why it flopped.
But there WAS a monster penguin
Nothing is bigger than Scott of the Sahara!
'It made me wish I’d seen it in a theater and still took drugs.' Yeah, those were the days.
I know it's passé in an Oscar context but 'No time to die' was the 5th film in a quietly marvelous series of Bond films and Dan Craig did a fabo job of rebooting the series.
A shame there's no recognition (apart from nearly 4 billion dollars in ticket sales) for Craig's probably 8-10 years work and fairly fine performances, especially in Quantum of Solace and the last film.
Movies and drugs are tricky. I saw CATCH-22 stoned and it was one of my worst evenings at the cinema EVAR.
"just don't think too hard about it"
Exactly! Is there some rule that says "Thou shalt NOT enjoy both SF/Fantasy films AND Scorcese, et al"? This is a false dichotomy. I like movies and pretty much everything that inspired directors to make movies.
The new Dune is fun and looks amazing but can never replace the inexplicable bizarreness of Lynch's. Imagine if he'd gotten ~5 hours across two movies to do his thing. But my point is I really wanted the new one to be weirder. (It's possible I'm too accustomed to the outlines of the basic plot to appreciate what weirdness is there.)